Managing Financial Anxiety

This week, Maggie chats with financial therapist Lindsay Bryan-Podvin about financial anxiety and how people can manage it better.

Episode Notes

In this episode, Maggie sat down with financial therapist Lindsay Bryan-Podvin. They talked about financial anxiety, how it manifests, and how you can work to release its hold on you. If you struggle with anxiety about money, this episode is for you!

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Lindsay Bryan-Podvin is the first financial therapist in Michigan; she combines financial literacy with the emotional and psychological side of money. With a professional history in mental health care, she found a greater love working at the intersection of mental health and money. It’s her mission to open up a dialogue with clients to talk about their money beyond bookkeeping. She hopes all of her financial therapy clients understand the basics of money, but also feel damn good about how their money is working for them. Lindsay practices financial therapy full time at Grove Emotional Health Collaborative in Ann Arbor. Off the clock, she can be found playing with her dog, Birdie, or scheming her next getaway with her husband.

Find her on Instagram @mindmoneybalance or her website www.mindmoneybalance.com.

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To learn more about Maggie and her coaching and speaking services, visit www.maggiegermano.com.

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The theme music is called Escaping Light by Aaron Sprinkle. The podcast artwork design is by Maggie’s dear husband, Dan Rader.

TRANSCRIPTION

Maggie Germano: 00:00 Hey there and welcome to the money circle podcast. My name is Maggie Germano and I am your host and this week’s episode I’m interviewing financial therapists, Lindsay, Brian-Podvin. I found Lindsay through Instagram and I am so grateful for the work that she is doing as a financial coach. Sometimes I realize that my clients need more than just my help. They sometimes need a financial therapist to help them work on the root causes of their financial problems. During this conversation, Lindsay and I talk about the difference between financial coaching, financial advising and financial therapy. We also dig into the topic of financial anxiety when it is, how it manifests and how people can start to overcome it. I had a really great time with this conversation because Lindsay’s work and my work are really compliment each other and we’re both on the same mission to help people get a handle of their money and get to a better place financially and emotionally. So I hope you enjoy our conversation.

Maggie Germano: 01:04 Okay, well welcome Lindsay to the money circle podcast. Thanks so much for being here with us

Lindsay: 01:09 so thrilled to be here, Maggie. Thanks.

Maggie Germano: 01:11 Great. Uh, so tell us a bit about who you are and the work you do.

Lindsay: 01:15 Yeah, so I am a financial therapist and what that means is that I work with couples and individuals who have financial related stressors, but they might not necessarily be about like the the dollars and cents of money, but more of the emotional and psychological issues that are going on, preventing them from truly addressing the money issues or from taking steps that they know they need to take in order to better their financial lives. Um, and I got here through a long, and maybe not long and winding road, but a winding road nonetheless. I started out working in the field of social work, doing a lot of mental health work, working one on one with clients and in a psychiatric research center and found that so many of my clients who came to me for reported anxiety and depression tended to also have financial stressors. But in my work I wasn’t really trained to do anything besides give them an 800 number to call. And I felt like it was such a disservice because I already had this person who was comfortable enough to talk to me about their mental health issues and now they’re bringing up their financial issues and I have to refer them elsewhere. So I wanted to try and find a way to provide those services in an ethical way, in a way that made sense for me that I felt comfortable and confident talking about. So I ended up getting certified in financial social work and that is how we are here.

Maggie Germano: 02:42 That’s amazing. I didn’t realize financial social work actually existed.

Lindsay: 02:47 Yeah. So there are a couple like credentialing offices. So one is the center for financial social work in that is in Asheville, North Carolina. And then the financial therapy association, which may or may not be familiar with. They are a group of academics. So, um, a group of financial professionals, psychologists, mental health professionals, and they like within the past couple of months have launched a certificate program for a financial therapy. Um, I think, I think their accreditation is financial therapist and then there’s like level one and level two. So they just rolled that out as well. So hopefully we’ll have more mental health professionals that are cross trained in this area.

Maggie Germano: 03:30 That’s really great because I mean, as you’ve said, and also as I’ve seen, this is becoming more of a topic that people are talking about and needing support with and it’s becoming, I think better well known that it’s not just a matter of personal failing. It does go deeper, people do need more support. So I’m really happy to hear that that’s expanding not just in the coaching field and the advising field, but also in the therapy field as well.

Lindsay: 03:55 Yeah, me too. It’s great.

Maggie Germano: 03:57 Yeah. And so related to that, how does a financial therapist differ from someone like me who’s a financial coach and someone who’s a financial advisor?

Lindsay: 04:08 I’d say there are certainly areas of overlap. Um, the, the biggest difference, and I do think a lot of financial coaches do this. I know that you do this. The biggest difference is making sure that we’re looking at the financial picture holistically, which includes mental health and wellbeing as a part of that financial plan. So, like you said, it’s not just about what is the bottom line at the end of each budget or at the end of the month for each budget. It is also are you spending in line with your values are in V are you investing in ways that feel good for you? Do you understand these terms? So I might do some financial literacy education because just like with mental health care, one of the first steps is providing education on the diagnosis. So I find that’s kind of similar when I’m doing financial therapy is just giving them some of the, the baseline entry-level terms and understanding of personal finance so that I might overlap with a financial advisor or financial coach. Um, and then, um, different than a financial advisor and that I’m not selling anything. I’m not taking a percentage of the person’s income. Um, I’m really there to help them with their self identified goal. So I’d say I line up closer to a coach, but it may be even less, um, budgeting and, uh, financial management than that. It’s much more on the emotional and psychological side.

Maggie Germano: 05:32 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that’s something that I’ve kind of not struggled with but thought about a little bit in my coaching practice where there are sometimes are people that there’s just something much deeper going on that I’m like, I’m not equipped to actually help them with this. There’s some, they really need deeper work, longer term work. And so I often ask, are you working with a therapist as well? And they don’t always have a financial therapist. In fact, I don’t think any of my clients have a specifically a financial therapist, but I’m always relieved to hear when there is a therapist in the picture because sometimes it is, you know, the money is just one of the symptoms that is stemming from the mental health problems.

Lindsay: 06:16 Yeah. And that’s, it’s so true, right? You can kind of problem solve as much as possible, but if there’s a mental health block there, then yeah, it’s better to go to a mental health professional. But yeah, I hear you. It’s hard to find people in the mental healthcare space who are comfortable talking about money because no surprise therapists are not immune from having financial issues themselves. Um, so it’s, it’s really interesting. I mean I remember when I was in the school of social work and the only, only time we ever talked about money was in a death and dying class, which is like so morbid, but that again just goes to show we’re trained on hard topics and the only reason it came up was in, um, like creating advanced directives and planning a will. So we’re not really trained on it either. So it’s, it’s they have to kind of seek it out and have an interest themselves.

Maggie Germano: 07:08 Yeah. That’s so interesting. Cause I know that like money and death are two topics that are very difficult for a lot of us to talk about and the fact that you’re getting trained on how to deal with death, but then kind of avoiding the money topic still unless you’re pursuing it yourself. That’s, that’s just goes to show how taboo money really still is. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Uh, so what, you know, we talked a little bit about some of the psychological issues that might be going on and when you might need a therapist versus a coach versus an advisor. But what are some of the reasons you think people often are coming to you?

Lindsay: 07:47 I think, um, there’s, there’s two big things. One is I know what I should do, but I’m not doing it. So they have a budget laid out. They have their five and 10 year goals. The C like financially when they look at the numbers that it is doable, but something is preventing them from doing that. That’s where a financial, a financial therapist could come into play to kind of look at what emotional blocks might be there, what money stories they might be telling themselves that aren’t serving them. And, um, I also find an interesting reason that clients are coming to see me is they just feel straight up bad about money. And when I say bad about money, I’m not talking, they can’t pay off their credit cards. They’re in debt. I’m talking for whatever reason, the idea of money makes them want to cringe. They have a hard time logging into their bank account. They think that money is gross or dirty or bad. So people who have really negative associations with their money and so then my role is to help them kind of neutralize those feelings again just like I would in traditional therapy.

Maggie Germano: 08:53 Yeah. And that’s a really important point too. Cause think, uh, for a lot of people they struggle with that avoidance and that fear and that like huge negative response to money. Whether something good or bad is even happening in the moment. And I liked the word you used around neutralizing it instead of it doesn’t mean you have to go from I hate money so much, I don’t want to deal with it to Oh my God, I love money. This is so wonderful. I have no problems with it. It’s like, no, it’s just maybe not threatening to you anymore.

Lindsay: 09:21 Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s what I find to be really hard right now is a lot of the messaging around money is around abundance and manifestation and those things are great. And if you’re in a space where you’re feeling guilty and gross and bad, like that’s way too far on the scale to even feel accessible to you. So it can again, make it really hard to get there. So you can just get to like, like I said, neutralizing it and makes it so much easier than to kind of jump on board with all of the other positive financial discussion that’s going on in our world. Yeah, and I think it’s important to remind people of that too, is that you don’t have to go from one end to the other end. Right. It is a process and you may not even get ever get to the end where you’re having that abundance mindset, but getting that more into a place of, I’m in control, I can handle this. I don’t have to avoid it. And just being able to move forward and actually reach your goals.

Maggie Germano: 10:13 Right. Totally. Definitely. Yeah. So you posted recently about financial anxiety. You’ve been talking about that a little bit on your social media and that’s been something that’s been on my radar a little bit. And so that’s one of the big reasons I asked you to come on today was to talk about financial anxiety because I think a lot of people can relate to that and they have something of that going on in their lives. Um, can you tell us a little bit what financial anxiety actually is?

Lindsay: 10:41 financial anxiety is having a thought or feeling that makes you anxious when it comes to looking at interacting with, dealing with your money, which most of us go, that’s me. The difference between financial anxiety and something like let’s say social anxiety is that sometimes with financial anxiety there is a component of truth. So let me back up a little. So with traditional, I’m just going to use social anxiety as an example. What some of the way that therapists treat it is by exploring with that person that negative thought. And nine times out of 10 identifying that that thought isn’t real. So this person with social anxiety, I’m going to walk into a party and everyone’s going to turn and laugh. The reality is that’s probably not going to happen. It’s so the work with them is just understanding that like that’s a distorted thought. It isn’t real. And moving forward where it becomes tricky with financial anxiety is sometimes there is a real problem that could happen. So if I am so anxious about looking at retirement and I’m worried I’m going to mess up the behavior might be that I don’t even open up a retirement account. So then with financial anxiety you have to kind of separate out what is a distortion and what isn’t real and what is something that you actually can take actions towards to quiet that anxiety. So that’s where financial anxiety gets a little bit tricky is that you can’t just say like, Oh, it’s just a negative thoughts, skip and move along. Like you actually do have to deal with something too.

Maggie Germano: 12:13 That’s a really good, yeah, because I think that is a lot when we talk about anxiety in general, like challenging our own reactions, challenging our own negative thoughts and um, all those disempowering beliefs in the stories we tell ourselves. And you’re definitely right that sometimes that is true with money, that, you know, I see this with clients where it’s like knowing no matter what I do, I’ll just always be bad with money. And it’s like, well that’s only true if it continues. Correct. Being the same. Right? Yeah. But that anxiety and that fear of continuing down a path of failure then causes that path of failure. So you’re right, it is tricky and we do have to kind of be aware of how those beliefs, those anxieties can then influence our own behavior.

Lindsay: 13:00 Yeah, absolutely.

Maggie Germano: 13:02 And so related to that, and you touched on this a little bit already, but how does financial anxiety manifest in people’s lives that you’ve seen?

Lindsay: 13:11 It can manifest in a lot of ways. The example I gave was kind of a negative thought or an anxious thought. Um, but often it’s somatic and that people feel it in their bodies. So traditional anxiety manifests in our body and sodas, financial anxiety. So for some people they might not even have the words or the language to say, Hey, I’m feeling pretty anxious about X, Y, Z with my money. But they may be able to say, I feel like I’m going to have a heart attack when I look at my paycheck or I feel like I’m gonna throw up when I have to talk to my financial advisor. And those are keys to checking in and going, what else might be going on? And seeing if we can identify a pattern that looks like anxiety. So anxiety, right? It looks like that fight or flight. So if things are going on where a person just kind of starting from the top of the body down, feels dizzy or has headaches or they feel their muscles are clenched or it’s difficult to breathe or they’re short of breath or they’re feeling nauseous, sweaty, whatever, that’s probably a good sign that there’s some anxiety going on so it can manifest physically. Um, I talked about how it can manifest within our thoughts and it can manifest, uh, between people. So I see a lot of couples and when one person or both have financial anxiety, it can disrupt that relationship and make it really hard in that money suddenly becomes this big bad elephant in the room because of a person’s anxious beliefs or anxious thoughts about the money and can kind of create a rift in the couple. So it can manifest in a bunch of ways. But those are the ways that I, I tend to see most often.

Maggie Germano: 14:47 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And as you said it, it can manifest physically, emotionally and relationally. So that has a big impact. So it’s definitely something people would want to get a handle on.

Lindsay: 14:59 Yeah, absolutely.

Maggie Germano: 15:00 So when it comes to couples, cause I sometimes work with couples and a lot of the women who do come to me for coaching are often encouraged to do so because of some kind of conflict that is happening around money, whether it’s with a family member or with a partner. So how do you kind of deal with couples when they are having that struggle? Where whether it is just one person having that anxiety or both, what kinds of things do you recommend for moving forward?

Lindsay: 15:31 I often recommend first kind of taking a look back at each partner’s financial history and financial lessons that they learned. And the benefit of this is twofold. One, it helps each partner kind of recognize the lens through which they view money. And two, they then have a better idea of where their partner is coming from. What I often see is that couples have the same or very similar goals, but the way that they want to get there is different based upon their relationship with money. So the example I often give is that maybe a value for that couple is security, but for one partner security looks like having a lot of money in checking so they can easily access it and for another partner that security might look like investing heavily in maxing out all their retirement accounts so they can feel secure in their future. Um, so one is just kind of taking a step back and figuring out where they got to, where they are now and then kind of identifying their values and beliefs, seeing where they overlap. Like I gave that example, but also seeing where they don’t align and being okay that you don’t have to be 100% aligned on every single value. I think that would be tough to find in any relationship and particularly in a partnership, but just acknowledging the other person’s values and being okay with that. Um, and to your point, I just want to address something that you brought up, which is that you often see women who are referred by somebody else. And the same is true of me. Women, men, um, gender is kind of uh, irrelevant, but oftentimes people are saying, Oh, so and so told me I have to come. And I think I’m going to start instituting a policy that if a person is a part of a serious partnership, they have to come with their partner. Because what I’m finding in treating just one of the two or three or however many people, um, that partnership is that you can’t really move forward when you’re only treating one part. You know, it’s kind of like that, that weakest link kind of a thing. I might be able to work with somebody in strengthen it, but if we were struggling as a partnership, we’re not going to make a ton of progress. So thinking about instituting that policy, so I’ll keep you posted on how it goes.

Maggie Germano: 17:46 That’s a really good idea because I think you’re absolutely right, but if there is a financial issue or even, you know, own emotional issue related to money or money is causing conflict and it is affecting both or however many people who are in a partnership, then both of them do need to be working on that together in order to be able to move forward. And that’s something that I’ve said to clients as well, or potential clients who are like, you know, my husband and I are fighting about money all the time, or he, you know, we’re completely not on the same page. He wants to do this, I want to do that, but you know, can I hire you and do coaching? I’m like, well, are both of you going to be attending those sessions because we can work on your individual stuff, but we can’t work on your stuff as a couple if he’s also not there. So 100% yeah. And I’ve also had, um, parents reach out to me about working with their children and the parent is often the one literally reaching out and trying to schedule things with me. And I’m like, I need to talk to your child first because they need to want to do this work in order for it to be valuable in any way.

Lindsay: 18:56 Yeah. Oh yeah. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had that call of like, my 20 year old is blah, blah, blah with their money. Can you fix them? And I’m like, ah, no. That’s a, that’s a hard, no, they have to want it.

Maggie Germano: 19:08 Right, exactly. Especially with this one on one work where you have to be vulnerable, you have to be open, you have to be honest. You have to be willing to hear recommendations or suggestions or do that deeper work and digging in. And if you’re, you know, already struggling but don’t want to open up and you’re just coming because someone is telling you to, it’s not actually gonna be useful at all.

Lindsay: 19:31 Yeah, absolutely.

Maggie Germano: 19:32 Yeah. Um, so you know, we talked about the emotional, the relational, the physical impacts of financial anxiety. What are some of the concrete like life impacts you’ve seen people have like negative impacts of not addressing that anxiety?

Lindsay: 19:53 I mean, unfortunately you see kind of how it can play out if nothing has changed. Um, so in some like worst case scenarios, it’s meant something like bankruptcy because a person has been so anxious about addressing, uh, their consumer debt that they haven’t taken action, that they won’t return calls, that they’ve kind of missed that window to reconsolidate their debt and where our a at at kind of that last possible step. Um, that’s rare. Um, often I see people post bankruptcy so we can kind of stop that from happening again. But occasionally I see somebody and not, that’s kind of just where we are. Um, but like anything, it kind of depends on the person, how that anxiety manifests in what that ends up meaning. Um, but unfortunately if a change isn’t made, what tends to happen is that worry that the person has is more likely to become reality. So it’s a really, really important thing to address that thing that is making that person anxious. Because again, in financial anxiety, the worry is that if you don’t take action about the thing, you’re worried about that thing you’re worried about my it actually happen. Yeah, it’s a Self fulfilling prophecy.

Maggie Germano: 21:13 Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. No, I see that too. Where it’s like if you’re not automating your bills or you’re not looking at your checking account, or you’re not just being careful and making sure you’re on top of things on a weekly, monthly, however often basis, then you’re going to be overdrafting. You’re going to be missing payments. You’re gonna be hurting your credit and hurting your chances for, you know, financial stability in the future. And I think, I mean, at least just who I am as a person, as well as how I’ve seen other people be. Sometimes we can kind of in a really negative way, take solace in that, that self fulfilling prophecy of like, see, I knew it, I knew that was going to happen. But it doesn’t have to happen if you’re addressing things upfront.

Lindsay: 22:01 Right. Absolutely.

Maggie Germano: 22:03 Yeah. So if someone wanted to address their financial anxiety or create a more positive relationship with their money, but maybe they weren’t ready to be working with someone or they weren’t in a financial place to be working with someone, what are some steps you recommend people taking within themselves to start calming some of that anxiety?

Lindsay: 22:30 Mmm, yeah. I would first have them do something that you said, which is what are the steps that person can take within themselves? So first kind of writing down what that financial anxiety is looking like, whether it’s a thought, whether it’s an emotion, whether it’s showing up in relationships and looking at it really objective Lee to see if there is some sort of answer within that worry. So if the worry is I will never be able to retire, writing it down and going, okay, what, what here is true? What here isn’t? Are there things that I can do? Um, and in a case like retirement, more likely than not, it’s an education and behavior issue. Okay, I need to learn about retirement. Where are resources that I can go? There are plenty of resources I need to take action. Do I need to contact somebody at HR? Do I need to contact my brokerage account? So kind of looking at what are the tangible things that I can do if it’s manifesting emotionally, it just like checking or I’m sorry, physically checking in again with what am I noticing this? Am I noticing that pit in my stomach only on paydays or only on days when I go out to dinner with my friends. What’s that about? What’s that pattern to try and just do some detective work on their own. So first kind of just like that, figuring out what might be behind it. Most of us know, but we’re the last people to figure it out. Right? Like you can say something like that to a friend. Like, Oh my gosh, I can’t believe it. I’ve been stressing out about retirement forever. And then I called HR and it was done in five minutes and the friends are like, yeah, duh. Of course it like takes two seconds. Why were you waiting? Um, but we’re often are our own worst enemies in that sense.

Maggie Germano: 24:18 Oh, I completely agree. I mean, I just had a call with a client the other day and she was having an issue with a student loan repayment program and it had basically expired and the payments were going to go up exponentially. But she was so stressed by that as an outcome that she was feeling paralyzed in taking the action she needed to take to actually get those payments back down and get re enlisted in this repayment program. And while we were actually on the phone, I was like, login, see, see if you can do it online and see if it’s a number you need to call. Like let’s just do it while we’re together so that we can deal with it now. And it turned out it was a form that she could just fill out and submit and she got it taken care of by the next day and it was like, Oh I’ve been stressed about this for weeks and thought my payments were going to more than double. And now I’m like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So if you can take action, look at what that might’ve prevented two weeks of chronic anxiety over that, over that student loan issue.

Maggie Germano: 25:25 Yeah, cause I think a lot of us often look back at what we’re stressed out about and what we’re worrying about. And we realized if we had just kind of sat down, like you said, and maybe made a list of what actually needs to happen in order to deal with this issue, we realized we didn’t need to suffer for all of that time or worry so much because we actually had more control than it seemed. Right. Right.

Lindsay: 25:49 And the other thing with financial anxieties, all the things that you do to treat traditional anxiety, work with financial anxiety. So making sure that you’re practicing deep breathing and you’re attending yoga or you’re running, so you’re moving your body in some way, shape or form. Making sure that you have solid social supports, making sure, um, that you’re doing more than just stressing out about your money. So yeah, that’s available too. Yeah, that’s really important. And that’s something that I’m passionate about with, you know, talking about money and being open with your friends about it. Because I think the more that we are holding it in and we’re keeping these worries to ourselves and keeping our struggles to ourselves, the more isolated we tend to feel, which then can make that anxiety feel even bigger. Because we think we’re the only ones going through that. And then we also feel like we’re alone and we have nowhere to turn.

Maggie Germano: 26:47 Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Um, so is there anything else you’d like to share with listeners just either about financial anxiety or why the work you do is so imperative for these kinds of issues?

Lindsay: 27:00 Just to know that they aren’t alone. I wouldn’t have a job if this wasn’t an issue. Um, and more often than not, it’s worse in your own head than it is in reality. And that can be one of the most empowering things is whether it’s making a call to a financial coach or to, um, a financial advisor or even just checking out a book from the library. Finding out that the things that you’ve been anxious about probably are bigger in your mind than they truly are. Um, and I think, I mean, I’m a huge proponent of any type of self care and I think financial and emotional relationships are a part of ourselves care. We have to deal with money no matter what it is. You know, if I was treating eating disorders, I would be talking to my clients about food and body image and behaviors for a very, very long time. And so to give yourself permission to work through that financial anxiety at a pace that works for you, it took a long time to get where you are, whether that’s anxious or whether that’s feeling really amazing about money. So just kind of giving yourself that space, like you do have to interact with money on a near daily basis, so you might as well take care of your relationship with your money.

Maggie Germano: 28:24 I love that because it’s true. It’s not like we can just avoid money altogether. There’s no such thing as really being fully off the grid and not having anything to do with it. Right. If you’re a normal society, you’re dealing with money.

Lindsay: 28:38 Exactly. You’re right.

Maggie Germano: 28:40 Yeah. And another point you said that I think is so important that I really want people to make sure that they’re listening to is that it’s taken your whole life to get to where you are now. Whether that is a good thing for you or maybe a not good thing for you. It’s taken 20 30 40 50 years, however old you are. You’ve lived through your whole life and gotten to where you are now, so expecting the way that you behave with money or the way that you think about money or anything in your life is not just going to flip overnight because you want it to and you suddenly are like, no, this is something I need to deal with. It’s something that needs to be worked on over time. It’s especially, you know, depending on if there’s past trauma around money or really negative family history around money, it might be a very delicate balance of dealing with it in a very caring way for yourself so that you can get to the other side.

Lindsay: 29:35 Yeah. I love that of just really taking the time to explore in a compassionate and gentle way so you don’t feel like you have to rush through to the very end.

Maggie Germano: 29:47 Yeah. Because I think that if you do expect that of yourself, you’re going to be very disappointed in what your outcomes actually are or how fast those outcomes actually come, which then can hurt that motivation and tend to help make you backslide because you’re frustrated with yourself again.

Lindsay: 30:04 Right. Absolutely.

Maggie Germano: 30:05 Yeah. So is there anything you would like to promote about yourself, the business that you do, anything like that you’d want our listeners to know about?

Lindsay: 30:15 Sure. Um, I am fully booked, which is a beautiful problem to have, but that means that I’m working on different ways to bring tools from my financial anxiety practice to others. So I will have a book coming out in January of 2020 the financial anxiety solution, so you guys can keep your eyes peeled for that. And in the meantime, I’m playing around with other ways to bring my services to folks that, um, means I can kind of multiply myself because I can’t. So I’m toying with the idea of something like group coaching or group therapy or some sort of online course. So I don’t have an exact thing to promote yet, but essentially follow along and I’ll keep people posted as I work through it and figure it out.

Maggie Germano: 31:03 That’s great. That sounds like fun. And I think the more people you can reach the better because obviously you’re doing something that’s very needed and I’m very excited that you have a book coming out very soon too.

Lindsay: 31:16 Yeah. Yeah. Very soon. My, I have to have it in by September 13th, which is Friday the 13th. So even though I’m telling myself I’m not superstitious, I’m trying to get it done by the 12th.

Maggie Germano: 31:29 That’s smart. Yeah. You don’t want your computer to crash or something.

Lindsay: 31:32 Yeah, exactly.

Maggie Germano: 31:34 Great. So that’s exciting. I’ll definitely keep an eye on that myself. Um, so where can listeners find you?

Lindsay: 31:41 I am as you know, really active on Instagram. That’s how we connected at mind, money, balance and on my website, mindmoneybalance.com.

Maggie Germano: 31:51 Great. All right, well thank you so much for being here. I really enjoyed this conversation and I think it’s really important for the listeners and once your book comes out, I’ll probably have you back to talk more about it.

Lindsay: 32:04 That sounds amazing. Thanks, Maggie. Thank you.

Maggie Germano: 32:07 Thanks for tuning in to the money circle podcast this week. Make sure that you rate, review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This also really helps just as we’re getting off the ground so that more people get the money, circle podcasts in front of them and in their ears. If you’d like to get more connected with money circle or with me, there are lots of ways you can do that. To join the free Facebook group. Visit facebook.com/groups/moneycirclegroup to stay informed of any upcoming events. Subscribe to my weekly newsletter maggiegermano.com/subscribe. if you’d like to join the virtual circle membership group, visit Maggie germano.podia.com/inner-circle. to learn more about my financial coaching services, my speaking and workshop offerings, or just to read my blog, visit maggiegermano.com you can also follow me on Instagram and Twitter @MaggieGermano.